1998 Interviews with Yoji Shinkawa and Hideo Kojima (NEXT Generation)
This interview was published circa April 1998 in NEXT Generation Magazine (Issue 40, Pages 57-59).
I made some minor alterations to the text where the grammar was clunky.
An Interview with Yoji Shinkawa
A relative newcomer to videogame art and development, Konami's Yoji Shinkawa certainly has his hands full with Metal Gear Solid. In addition to character and prop design, he also handles all the backgrounds.
NEXT:
Was Metal Gear the kind of game you had in mind when you joined Konami?
SHINKAWA:
Oh yes. Metal Gear has a very heavy and "hard-boiled" atmosphere. I really wanted to make a game like this. When I saw Metal Gear on MSX, I thought the game was very cool. It wasn't just a simple game — even after I finished playing it I kept thinking about it, and I knew I wanted to make a game that was so entertaining that everybody would remember it. That's why I joined Konami.
NEXT:
So you really like this kind of "hard-boiled" atmosphere?
SHINKAWA:
Yes. It's my taste. I really like dark colors.
NEXT:
Doesn't a dark color scheme make the game difficult to see?
SHINKAWA:
Yes, it's true the game is dark. When I compare Metal Gear to other games we see in game magazines, Metal Gear sometimes looks very poor graphically; it's difficult to discern the characters from the backgrounds. But in fact, it's not a problem. When the character is moving, it's very easy to see him. Dark colors are not a real problem.
NEXT:
So what took the most care when designing the graphics?
SHINKAWA:
Lighting was the most important thing. In Japanese movies we often see lighting that's very flat. I don't like that. I prefer blue lighting where dark is extreme and light is very intense. It gives a very cool, rich atmosphere.
NEXT:
How do you decide the characters' details?
SHINKAWA:
I listen to Mr Kojima's story and the images he has in mind. Sometimes he asks me to change particular details, but I always do the design in my own way. The result is better.
NEXT:
Mr Kojima entrusted you with all of the graphic design. Is the design completely done internally at Konami?
SHINKAWA:
Yes, it's an internal process. If we asked any external artists, I don't think it could be better than the designer's own imagination. There are ways to use external design teams, but I prefer to do even small things internally.
NEXT:
The appearance of Solid Snake has changed. Why?
SHINKAWA:
I think about that a lot. I saw some illustrations of Solid from the MSX Metal Gear, where Solid is an oyaji — a middle-aged guy. But we didn't believe this image to be good for sales, so we drew him again. Now he looks younger than before. I think the oyaji image is cool, but there's already one elder person in the game, so we remade Solid Snake as someone of a different age.
NEXT:
We understand that when you draw some props and hardware, you first make a small, physical model, then draw it. Why?
SHINKAWA:
Yes, that's right. My first job was designing Metal Gear prop models.[1] I worked at home about two months and made different models using plastic parts. Each time I finished a small part I would call the director and report it. From going over the model, I drew the illustration and put it in the game.
NEXT:
Isn't it difficult to go through all these stages?
SHINKAWA:
I just think it's better and more enjoyable than drawing things directly. But maybe it's just because of my lack of drawing skill! (laughs)
NEXT:
Is this just your own special way of doing it?
SHINKAWA:
Yes, but I'm not the only one who uses this technique. For example, some do models with a high level of detail. Some others draw dots, make stick figures, draw it again, and repeat the job many, many times — my way is just one way of doing things.
NEXT:
What is the most difficult part of designing 3D graphics?
SHINKAWA:
Well, for example, right now I'm discussing with the director the height of a fence and its proportions. The director says three meters but I said maybe four meters.
NEXT:
Do you think it matters to the end user?
SHINKAWA:
Yes, we have a policy to care about this small level of detail. Generally in movies, filmmakers care about small details, but that's not the case in games. But we try to ignore the past and what other people are doing. So for Metal Gear we are taking care of these small details. I prefer to ignore the old way of making games. I want to make a game like I'd make a movie. I want to do games in my own way. This time the game is a little bit off-the-rails, but that's OK. I don't want to make games in the formal way. We want Metal Gear to be the sort of game that people have never played before.
An Interview with Hideo Kojima
Undoubtedly one of Konami Japan's greatest assets, Hideo Kojima created the original Metal Gear, a landmark for gameplay in the 8-bit age. Currently the producer and director of Metal Gear Solid, Kojima met with Next Generation to discuss the project in Konami's new offices, located in Tokyo's fashionable Ebisu Garden Place.
NEXT:
Which of the games did you design before? You made the first MSX version, correct?
KOJIMA:
Yes, the MSX Metal Gear was my first game. I also made Solid Snake. The present Metal Gear Solid staff is different from the staff of Metal Gear and Solid Snake. After the first MSX Metal Gear, we all went different directions. However, Policenauts and the current Metal Gear have had almost the same staff, with the exception of Kazuki Muraoka, who is doing the music.
NEXT:
Is the game shown in the video actually running on PlayStation?
KOJIMA:
Yes, the game is already running fully on PlayStation. For the video we did make the camera move around a lot. It will be different in the final game.
NEXT:
Is the gameplay similar to the MSX version?
KOJIMA:
The gameplay is based on the same principle: You have to avoid being discovered by the enemy. But everything is now in polygons, and the player can jump from the over-the-shoulder view to a first-person view. With this feature, different things become possible, like the use of a sniper rifle, the PSG1, for example; and it will be possible to zoom in on things located at a distance of 50-60 meters. But the basic game system will stay the same — when you're discovered, numerous enemies will come down on you, and by running away or killing all the enemies, you can return to the initial, stealthlike situation.
NEXT:
How is the story linked to the previous games?
KOJIMA:
The story takes place after the first story. A few old characters will appear, but even people who never played the MSX version will be able to get into the game easily.
NEXT:
Is the game nonlinear?
KOJIMA:
Mostly there's one main story, but in fact there will be two endings, although each ending will carry the main theme. The game won't feature any bad endings.
NEXT:
How many characters will appear in the game?
KOJIMA:
It will be possible to play as only one character: Solid Snake. About 20 other characters will appear throughout the game — enemies, terrorists, Snake's friends. A few subplots will also be introduced. As far as characters known by name, though, there are about 20.
NEXT:
How big is the game? How many hours of play will be included?
KOJIMA:
We don't know yet. Yesterday we finished recording the dialogue, which is about three hours worth over the course of the game. But we don't want the game to be too long. The target age is about 25 years old, and these people don't have as much time to play.
NEXT:
When did you begin development?
KOJIMA:
That's a difficult question. The first time I wanted to make a Metal Gear in polygons was when I heard rumors about the PlayStation. So, I've had this project in mind since around 1994. At that time the main story was worked out, and the main artist, Yoji Shinkawa, started work on the design. In September '96, we started to work actively on the project's development. It's our team's first polygon game, and in fact it's also my first polygon game. The main programmer started to work on the project alone in 1996. Then we moved our offices from Osaka to Tokyo, and we started to gather the members to really start the development.
NEXT:
What's been the most difficult part of the development?
KOJIMA:
Surely the 3D environment. It's our first time. We had to make the models, make them move, and manage the light. We were worried about at the beginning.
NEXT:
Did you experience any problems with speed or CPU power?
KOJIMA:
No, the speed was fine. We have a refresh rate of 1/30 second. But we did have some difficulties. We made models of buildings and put in some characters, but some items weren't realistic because the proportions were wrong — doors were too small, tables not the right size. Even by using a mock-up it was difficult to build things in the right proportions. It was difficult to obtain a good balance. To find the best point of view and to simulate some camera movement, we used a mini-8mm camera and moved it around a LEGO mock-up. We made the last demo like this.
NEXT:
Do you think you've used 100% of the PlayStation's capacity?
KOJIMA:
We asked a lot of the PlayStation, but according to the programmer, there is still a little bit more we could use.
NEXT:
Are there things you couldn't do because of technical hurdles?
KOJIMA:
There's a lot! It's always the same, though. At the start we concentrated with the programmer on seeing what was possible, and in fact there were no real technical impossibilities, but some of the time it wasn't possible to include things ecause it was harmful to the game. For example, we wanted to simulate a blur and add it to certain scenes. Technically, we succeeded in making a nice blur, but it required too m uch processing power, and the game slowed down. So actually we should separate impossible things into two categories: things we technically could not do and things that wwe could do but which would hurt the game. But it's the same problem with any hardware. The present build of Metal Gear takes into account all of PlayStation's capabilities, but it's not definitive yet and will improve. The textures [in the final game] will be nicer, for example.
NEXT:
How do you create the animation?
KOJIMA:
We didn't use any motion capture techniques. We succeeded in creating humanlike movements manually without it. Usually by designing the movements this way, they always seem a little bit "too much". But we wanted the motion to be stylized, to be like an animated movie. So for the animation we used an anime specialist. He designed the movement by hand based on his experience. In the game, when there is an explosion, it's not the same as in reality. But it's the same for movies — they use cables and stunt men. We wanted an "entertainment-like" reality, not total realism.
The programmer and designer, like the staff, are young. They didn't have lots of experience making games. But because they didn't have much experience, they didn't say at the beginning that things had to be done in a certain way. For example, when they had to design a building, they started with the basics. They did unconventional things that professionals usually don't do. In fact, their lack of experience made them go in a good, different direction to create this stylized "reality". We also had an open-minded programmer who was willing to sacrifice some processing power to keep some good-looking effects.
NEXT:
What is Metal Gear's closest competition?
KOJIMA:
People seem to believe Biohazard [Resident Evil] is similar to Metal Gear. Considering the market, it may be true that the games are rivals. But I don't think the games are similar.
NEXT:
Is GoldenEye a rival?
KOJIMA:
It's a good game, but I'm not worried about it at all, since it's for a different game system. Considering the way the game will play, I think Metal Gear is closer to Zelda 64 than to GoldenEye.
Footnotes
- It's not exactly clear if Shinkawa is referring to prop models in general for Metal Gear Solid, or the Metal Gear REX prop model in particular.⬆️️